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Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4 Content ---- ---- ---- Careful. It seems that people get incredibly defensive about their beloved game, even when you say something valid lol. | |} ---- Nailed it for me. That's all it takes indeed. | |} ---- There is plenty on Exile side though! But with that, people that are re rolling will lean toward exile, because its known exile is the higher population faction, it doesn't mean the dominion faction on every server is dead. | |} ---- ---- ---- why would anyone pay a sub for that? I wanna play wildstar so if i need to pay a sub i will.. same as if skyrim would have a sub O-o Players need other players in an MMO: maby you do but i would be happy if i could get rid of all the brainless people from grp finder that is just holding my progression back.. why do i need to depend on others for my enyoyment? Should really make a Solo-player progression system because some people just wanna play the game that way (Because i wanna play my granok in wildstar i don't wanna go and play a singleplayer game that is a totally different game) this is insane for a brand new hyped MMO: Tell me how many was in the game after the first month of every other MMORPG, If people don't like the game, they leave, dosen't matter if it's new or not The main reason i want people in the game is just to have people to be social with.. but other people dosen't wanna be social with me so.. It's a singleplayer game anyway. since noone talks, just do their stuffs | |} ---- ---- I can't get my head around it either. Why they haven't addressed it at all, I don't know. It's either denial or incompetence.. neither of which is good. Here's hoping they'll open up free transfers off the lower pop servers. | |} ---- ---- They're probably giving it time to see if anything improves over the next month or so. This game has only been out for a few months. People were complaining that realms were dead in WoW for years before they started Connected Realms. | |} ---- Which would be sheer incompetence. Why would the game grow? The subscriber base has shrunk greatly, so there goes word of mouth getting new players. They hardly advertise. There's nothing to draw people to the game, nor draw people back (yet). This is how I picture Carbine right now: | |} ---- There's a few difference here. First off, Carbine isn't a AAA studio backed by hundreds of millions of dollars from other properties. Secondly, WoW had at one point had over 500 servers between the regions. At launch WoW had eighty-eight North American servers. They continued to add more and more servers as were needed, and only recently started merging servers. Despite what players were saying, the servers we're still rather full of players. Not cap, not "full" on the realm list, but hardly ever going into Low and the main cities we're almost always packed. On top of that, it wasn't until well into WoW's lifespan that the "dead server" issue became something people were complaining about. Up through WOTLK nearly every single server maintained a medium - full population. Now lets look at Wildstar. They had 22 servers at launch, and are now at 33 servers. That's a 50% server increase all of which was done before the free trial month was up. Servers specifically created so people on five to six servers total didn't have to wait in ridiculous queues. As I write this post, of the 15 N/A servers you can log into, only 3 have any real population left, and it's no coincidence those three are the same three people jumped ship from when new servers rolled out in the first week. Given what we know about the servers and the server capacity, they could - quite literally - merge the remaining 12 N/A servers into 3 servers giving us 3 PVP and 3 PVE (2 PVE, 1RP-PVE) servers to choose from, all of which would likely have roughly the same population, and give the community and newcomming players the sense that the game isn't absolutely dead. As it stands now unless you're logging in on peak hours every single N/A server is "Low" on population. A merge would put the remaining servers at Medium, Heavy, Full and help tremendously if for no other reason than apperances. Newcomming players will not last long or even give the game a chance when they look at the server lists and see nothing but Low. This is a fact. They recently added free trials on many websites, pretty much all the top MMO news websites, and I haven't seen much, if any real change in population whether it be in the lowbie zones, the main towns, lower bracket PVP, or PVE. In fact, it seems even with the trials, that the population continues to fall. They are absolutely silent about the issue. In fact, to my knowledge, not a single developer or staff member has commented on the current server populations and what will be done. Instead they just tell us about things that are inconsequential (like new costume pieces) or only speak specifically about upcomming / newly released Ultra Drops, with an occasional post here and there about bug fixes. Enough is enough. We're two months after launch and nearly every (N/A) server is a ghost town, and they refuse to acknowledge it. No matter how you look at it, it is not a good situation. Players are getting fed up more and more, and are leaving by the droves. The "honeymoon" period has ended, and we're basically left with an abusive spouse that ignores our plea's. | |} ---- ---- ---- Having a requirement of Silver isn't the issue. It's what you have to do to get Silver. For the most part, unless you're severely overgeared for it, you have to have a completely perfect run while also skipping many of the non-boss and non-objective based mobs because it's time locked. Whoever thought time locking the Silver attunement was a good idea needs to be fired. Make us do 100% of the optionals and side-missions in the dungeon and finish the last boss/encounter to earn silver, leave the time gating to Gold. | |} ---- That's the thing. We've given it time. Two months after launch if an MMO doesn't have a healthy population it's in trouble. There is no gain in customers in this game, and really seems like the only people left are those of us hanging on, hoping that things will eventually turn good. When new players log in and see every single realm as "low" and come across only a handful of players the entire time they level (unless they pick the right server to play on which is a less than 5% chance on N/A given that there's only 15 servers and only 1 faction per server with any real population on the three servers that go into Medium) they are not going to stick around. This game had a brilliant launch. Some bugs with DDOS the first day, but after that it was playable pretty much 95% of the time you tried to log in. The zones on practically ever server were full of players. The Twitch streamers were in the tens of thousands of viewers. Queues were near instant for practically everything excluding Warplots (have you SEEN them?) and the main cities had so many people in them they were splitting the instances. But now? Now there's less than 1,000 viewers on Twitch, only the most hardcore of people bother streaming, queues take a significant amount of time regardless of what you're doing and what level bracket, and all but a few servers feel absolutely empty. Given how the game is going, if people give it any more time, say three or four more months, there won't be anyone left playing except the most hardcore of hardcore who are sticking to the game for whatever reasons. | |} ---- That's the way a hype cycle works. Right now we're in the "trough of disillusionment" stage, which isn't a pretty place to be in, mind you, but as long as Carbine keeps up with the UltraDrops and bug fixes and tweaks as they've been doing, interest will grow again. If that doesn't work, well, then they'll have to take more drastic steps, but now is too early to make that call. | |} ---- We're having the same problem mate, Dominion side of Contagion. Illium used to be filled with life but it's like a complete ghost town now. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- The same SWTOR that crashed and burned, going F2P within a year? Here's an interview with bioware where they talk about the missteps they made, reacted too slowly, and watched their game plummet and the layoffs that followed. Many similarities indeed. | |} ---- ---- ---- Ironically fitting since Star Wars is involved. | |} ---- And thats the problem. The game is only 2 months old and it's lost half of it player base. Assuming most servers consider medium capacity to be between 33 and 66%. From soon after launch 33 serves were constantly at medium or better with around 4 full, and 7 high. Now assuming that the high servers where only at 67% capacity that means that on average the server was at around 67% capacity. (Information taken from screenshots of servers roughly 1 month after launch.) Now only 5 servers make it above medium 3 US 2 EU. Assuming 32% on all low servers and 66% on all medium that means the servers are at 36% capacity. This means that the game has lost more than 50% of it player base in a single month. It took SWTOR 5 months to loose that much of its player base. Meanwhile, Square Enix got its shit together, added content, removed some of the more restricitive gates, fixed their bug problems and made FF14:arr hit the 2 million subscriber mark. I know bug fixes will take time, but right now the time gates are wildstars biggest problem. They discourage people from playing any longer than they have too to cap for the week what every they are gathering to accomplish their goal. The massive amount of time it takes to do anything combined with the sense of wildstar population declining so rapidly is making people say "This game is just going to go f2p why bother." and leave. Server merges may help with the empty feeling players feel but it won't making things take any less time to accomplish. And lets be honest, 8-9 months of grinding just for enough gems to max out your character let alone gear them is idiotic. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- I was in the SWTOR beta. I am a SW fan, so I gritted my teeth and ignored the problems for a while and let it sucker me in just enough to buy the real game...which ended up lasting about three weeks on my computer because I just couldn't stand the crappy game anymore, no matter how much I liked the SW universe. There were many, many people like me. And we all know how SWTOR turned out. Right now, Wildstar is heading the same direction. There is the core idea for a WoW killing game here, but it's bogged down under a ton of issues that are observably killing the game's population even faster than SWTOR. The canary in the coal mine is dead. Carbine needs to do something quickly, and particularly needs to step up its advertising for this game, or what could have been the best MMO of its generation will be a footnote in less than a year. Mark my words on that. | |} ---- ---- You forgot: 11) Everyone is a professional MMO consultant whose opinions are objective facts that can be backed-up with anecdotes. | |} ---- The path dev(s) decided that Settler wasn't #hardcore enough. The teleporters decay in 5 minutes now instead of 30 minutes. Basically there's no point in setting them up anymore. | |} ---- ---- Really? What are current numbers, are what numbers are required to sustain the game? | |} ---- ---- ---- Am guessing you play on a populated server. The reason I say we are reaching a tipping point is due to the servers that I am on being dead. Thayd and Illum are ghost towns, Blighthaven has tumble weed blowing across it, Crimson Badlands and Nothern Wastes are empty. My guild has gone from a thriving busy place to only having 1-2 online at any one time. Myself and the other officer have spoken to members who have said that they wont be back unless something is done to improve the number of people on the server (i.e. server merges). Now I dont have any numbers to back this up, but you don't have to be a genius to see that servers are dying. The longer nothing is done about the current situation the more people are going to leave. THAT is when we will see the tipping point. The point at which too many players have become disillusioned at the state of the game and Carbines lack of response. All I would like to see is some Official response from Carbine to say "Hey guys, we are well aware of the server issues at the moment. We are looking into it, just please be patient". Now that response has to be made on these forums and not on a 3rd party site like Reddit or Twitter. Now I know that if I were to see that I would at least give them more time in which to sort the issues out. I am 99% sure that others would as well. It is the lack of response which is driving not only me away but many others as well. | |} ---- You're very much spot-on in your analysis. Anyone that's been playing MMOs long enough knows that when a company says absolutely nothing about sales or subscriber numbers since release knows it's a very bad omen. Not only that, but all you have to do is log on in any server and ask around. You don't even need fuzzy math to put 2+2 together and come to a conclusion based on what the community in-game is saying or the desolation that is now the auction house on most servers. It's unfortunate, because this is a really fun game until 50. I don't even care about the subscription because to me it's already F2P with how easy it is to buy C.R.E.D.D. with in-game plat I've earned. My sub is good until late Spring! I just simply don't have the same drive to log on as much because of how thinned out the population has become "AND" because of the time gates, broken PVP, and lack of shit to do besides dailies. | |} ---- One of the things that really amazes me here, is looking back at how badly Blizzard handled their servers, and as usual they didn't pay for it at all. They're much worse at making great games these days, but are so much better at managing their customers and mass advertising it doesn't matter. What you said about their servers being fine is completely false. That they had phenomenal growth when it was the best mmo released at exactly the right time, we all already know, its how they've handled the last few years that is more worth a comparison to a newly released mmo. Going back 3-4 years ago there were dead servers in WoW, and by dead I mean their AH wasn't even functioning, much less the ability to group with others. By last year my server, formerly a top ten raiding server back in TBC and always high pop, hit low status, and looking around more than half the servers were clearly worse off. Gaps in basic mats on the AH is about as bad as it can get. What was Blizzard's solution? First it was the cross realm zones for the leveling areas. Now to me this just gives the appearance of a full game and is worthless, in fact it detracts, from the game play of a mmo. However, it turns out that the appearance matters more to people than game play value. There have been people here complaining about lack of population since week 2 when it clearly was not true. Its hard for me to reconcile my actual experience with how WoW managed its servers and the standards that are set for other mmos. Another thing that I keep coming back to, is how abandoned the draenei starter zone was on a high pop server just one month after TBC launched. Not only that, most of the leveling areas from 20-58 were sparsely populated as well. Today, if they aren't full a month after a new mmo launches, its a crisis. I just couldn't let the WoW comparison go by, as Blizz has used the worst, most underhanded way of dealing with the issue, but I actually do agree with you that Carbine needs to resolve the situation, at minimum in the EU. Your time frame is unrealistic though. You are expecting them to respond within a month to a issue we don't have the full answers to yet. Also, though the labels are meaningless, but I do get they need to manage subsribers to some extent as Blizzard does, it is a business after all. Obviously each new mmo brags about having higher capacity servers because its generally true, the technology allows for more people every year, but especially given w*'s use of 20 and 40 man content, I do think the game requires much higher populations than some other games. They started out talking in real terms when they explained why server queues were happening in the first week. They talked about not wanting to merge too many servers, which is a comment that says they understand how this works these days. Personally, after seeing how much instancing happens, I'd rather see a couple mega servers per region than have mergers per se. I have no idea how complicated or how long that would take though. | |} ---- ---- Yeah, this is breaking my heart. I raided in SWTOR up until I bought Wildstar. I don't regret it, but man, it still hurts to look at SWTOR and see all the missed potential. Wildstar is an amazing game with great combat, and hella rad PvE design that's getting wrecked by poor decisions. I don't throw out the SWTOR comparison lightly. That was a ~100mil boondoggle that I stuck with because I loved it. I'll stick with Wildstar, too, but how many won't? How many people will leave? I'm afraid it will snowball, and Rowsdower (which is already pretty empty) will end up looking like Saber of Exar Kun pre-merge (that is to say, completely empty). | |} ---- ---- A good example of Blizzard's ability to spin speak to their base! :) | |} ---- To be honest, I think the idea of megaservers, cross-realms, whatever is not a bad idea for a game like Wildstar. God, it sucked in GW2 though. | |} ---- 100 Million? Try 500 million. | |} ---- Clearly you didn't read my post properly. I said that both it wasn't well into WoW's lifesan that they weren't having issues with servers, and up through WOTLK the servers were for the most part fine, which by and large they were. It wasn't until people start leaving the game and the overall population declined towards the end of Lich King that the servers were actually starting to die off. As for the rest of your post, I'm not even going to bother reading it, since you clearly didn't bother to read mine. | |} ---- Should check your own reading comprehension there. The very next sentence addresses that. The gist of your post gives the wrong impression and has no comparable value to what we are dealing with, but keep randomly making comments about games like SWTOR and others with little to no understanding of the industry. | |} ---- ---- The gist of my post was that WoW didn't create a 50% server increase in the first month, and didn't have to deal with dead servers until years after it was launched as opposed to Wildstar's months. Your post takes server numbers and merging (or lack of merging in the case of cross-realm zones) from well after what I was talking about, trying to somehow make your side of the argument correct. On top of that, claiming I have "little to no understanding" of the industry where plenty of my posts contain facts and knowledge about the industry is just dumb. I've been playing MMO's for nearly two decades, and have seen more crash and burn than I can remember, but I've never seen one crash as quickly as Wildstar has. Market trends exist for a reason. And for the record, I'm not randomly making comments about games like SWTOR, I'm correcting the guy in saying that his $100million blunder was way off the mark and when all was said and done the game cost the company roughly $500 million before it launched. | |} ---- ---- The problem was they made a hasty decision within the first few days of launch to create new servers because there were extended queue times on a handful of servers. Even in the first week most servers only saw a few minutes - if any - worth of queue times. But because servers like Stormtalon and Pergo had legit 10+ hour queues they decided to increase their server amount by 50%. Instead of waiting a week or two to see how the population disperses and see what the queues look like then, they decided to add more servers based on that initial influx of players all trying to play the game at the same time. Practically every MMO that launches has a super busy first week or so - where everyone is trying something new, people are taking off work to play, etc etc - but after that it normalizes quickly. Add to the fact that character transfers were planned for 20$ prior to release, and any signs of merging or free transfers (with the few exceptions being the full capacity servers), and it makes sense why they're in the mess they're in now. Then again, hindsight is always 20/20. | |} ---- ---- When there are posters like Wiawyr running around saying that server mergers are a sign of a dead game it needs to be pointed out that all mmo's have a peak at launch and then lose subs within a few months. Especially in this context of what others are discussing, I found your description of WoW 5-10 years ago misleading. I can't see what bearing it has with mmo's today. Whats happening now is that they have dead servers all over the place and are slowly fixing it while using weasel word language to not say they are merging servers. What will happen when their next expansion releases? They'll go up in subs and drop most of them again within half a year. If that's the pattern for the biggest brand name, if it happens in every other mmo, then it is a matter of how this is dealt with and not a problem that it is happening. I don't have an issue with server mergers, but lets not pretend there have been a lot of good solutions on this front. There's been Blizzard with their customer managing strategy to convince people servers aren't empty, SWTOR delaying the inevitable nearly a year past release, and then w* which is only 2 months in. Possibly Europe needs a quicker solution, but I think its way too early to call Carbine out on this yet. Actually, we seem to be mostly in agreement, so perhaps I shouldn't have said it as "completely false" or you should have read the rest of my post, but my main gripe is how much bs gets thrown around in mmo population discussions and how full of it Blizz in particular is. Who knows how many of those 7 million players are in the US and EU still, so convenient they threw the Asian numbers in there to get that gaudy number and then blame all its losses on them. Lets add how they introduce a cash for gold method on the sly. They've always had cash for super leveling in RAF, but they want more, so they float the idea of xp pots and when that gets a negative reaction they instead add the free 90 to the xpack. Its the way they are always testing what form of something their playerbase will accept, not what those customers want, but how Blizz can get what they want that really bugs me. But I digress. | |} ---- Wait what so you're saying it's my fault that I moved because they gave me the option? Because they were practically begging you to on the login screen? I've seen and addressed this before but it's not the consumer's fault here. The decision to add servers was Carbine's alone, nobody made them do anything. Are the people who initally rolled to those new servers also to blame? I mean, the game was telling you to roll on the new servers. There was literally a little announcement on the screen (roughly "Do you have queue times? Try rolling on X!"). Also, queue times were not exaggerated. I waited 5 hours in Pergo queue. That happened. It's not the worst queue I've ever waited in (that would be the 8 hour queue times on Briarcliff during Rift headstart!) but you could see why people would take the free xfers in good faith. The problem with the "just pay to xfer lol" is that many people stuck are part of established communities, or have friends on server. The people who didn't have things tying them to their server of choice have either quit or already xferred. Also that doesn't solve the problem of low pop servers. It just makes it worse (see also: when everyone rerolled to Fatman in SWTOR, leaving behind a million empty servers. Yes, it was so bad that people up and left their characters to reroll because there weren't the option of character xfers). EDIT: I'm not saying that there wasn't a decision on my part to move. There was. I moved with the rest of my guildmates. But a "lol sucks to be you teehee" contributes nothing to the discussion. It just engenders anger on the part of those who legitimately have an issue here and derails the thread. | |} ---- I am not a computer professional, but I grew up with computers and computer games from the Commodore PET onward, and have beta tested and/or played the majority of significant MMO's since the early days of UO and EQ1. Therefore, I do feel pretty well qualified to comment on what makes a computer game successful, and right now, Wildstar simply isn't there. | |} ---- Then I shall refer you the question I asked someone else earlier: | |} ---- Why don't you provide some? You're trying to disprove the assertion that the servers are empty and that merges are needed. You say we're not qualified to make that claim, that we're not experts, and then ask for numbers (which you know that it's impossible for us to have) to back up our opinions. You realize of course that you don't have any numbers to prove everything's okay? That you're not a professional MMO consultant either? Put simply - requiring "proof" that you KNOW doesn't exist is disingenuous and adds nothing to the discussion whatsoever other than to frustrate those trying to express their opinions. I might as well say that Wildstar is dead and going F2P at the end of September and that I know it is because Carbine told me so in a private email I was asked not to share. | |} ---- MMOs don't work that way. Adapt or die. Wildstar is prettymuch dead at this point because of attitudes like this. | |} ---- You are doing it wrong :p Anyhoot. This is like 27 pages long and I'm not readying 27 pages of people who are already on Decent Mid-high populations say they do not want to merge. I do play on a server that is Low pop, I play on the Dominion side. Their has to be less than 400 of us. Last night at "peak" time was when I was able to log in. Guess how many people were at Scorchwing? I have no idea, but I can tell you there was only 5 Dominion, the rest of the bunch (20+) Exiles. I'm in one top populated guilds (there are like 4-5, that most are in), no one in the history of MMOs just wants to go help out to re-do an event they already have done that day. It is very hard to gather enough Doms to do anything. Would I like to see the server merged? Yes. With Stormtalon, the big populated on? No. Is there another server that is maybe the opposite of mine? I don't know, but if there was that would be the server to merge with. It would equal out the Dom/Ex population. But, but but, my name/guild name!? Meh. You must not be using unique enough name(s). I have, like many here, played MMORPGs for a good while. -My home server in FFXI was merged with another server after almost 8 years. It sucked at first, but after about 2 weeks of the asshats QQing, people realized they were able to get groups/find people to do stuff. It all worked out in the end. -I've played WoW for many years, and rolled on a server that had some RL friends on it. It seemed ok, but then Cata came out. A lot of people quit and never looked back. The server I was on was Alliance heavy (almost 6 to 1, I play Horde). After not being able to raid (there just was not enough people. Players were in groups already) we decided to transfer off, to a realm that was more Horde heavy (3 to 1). We were able to go about raiding after meeting some new peeps. So with this info above, I have proven I have been forced to merge, and that I paid to move (merge). Both times it worked out in the end. There were players, not dead zones were getting a GROUP 2+ is a "good luck." The devs what the devs did. On opening week my now dead server had a wait time of 1-2 hours. When I came home from work I'd try to sign in, and then go shower, eat, do other stuff, and if I was in, play until I needed to go to bed. I may pay for the transfer, but at the same time I find it silly to do so. Seems like this topic needs to be done, and will be done. Just sooner or later? There isn't much to do at 50, so banking that each Drop is going to pull people back in so retarded. Took years for FFXI/EQ(1&2)/WoW to get where they are. Hype a game up, Carbine did, but now people are going back to games with years of content. Some of us want to stick around, but I don't want to have to spend 3omin-1hour+ looking for people to get shiz done. If I wanted to do that, I'd go back to FFXI. | |} ---- LOL By "share" I meant "show you as proof" but I get what you did there. ;) | |} ---- ---- I've never said that servers aren't low pop, I'm just tired of seeing 20 "Wildstar will die if I don't get what I want" threads every day. Correct. I'm illustrating the fact the no-one outside of Carbine/NCSoft is qualified to say whether the game is failing or succeeding. I've never claimed either of those 2 things. I don't know the status of the game, but the difference between me and the all the doomsayers is that I don't come here and try to pass off baseless speculation as some kind of informed opinion. Like I said, just illustrating the point that no-one is qualified to say the game is failing. Let's say for example the population halved since headstart. That looks pretty bad, but what if the numbers at head start were 4 times what's needed to sustain the game? Just to re-iterate, the point I'm making is that nobody knows. | |} ---- losing those 4 people will bring the server population to "critical low" server status. can't let that happen! | |} ---- ---- But you see, most of the posts here aren't saying "Wildstar isn't making enough money". You're right - we don't know how many subs they'd have to sustain in order to stay in business, and frankly I don't think anyone here really cares. They're saying they're not having fun, that servers are deserted and that there's nobody to play with, and if something isn't done to combat that they will leave. From their POV, the game *is* failing. You arguing semantics and financial viability is just exacerbating an already frustrating situation. | |} ---- ---- ---- I am genuinely ignorant about the consequences that a server merge will bring. Can you elaborate please? | |} ---- If you expect one it won't happen. It's like the tooth fairy you gotta be asleep......wait the tooth fairy doesn't exist! | |} ---- ---- ---- Myself and the other Officer in my guild have had this very discussion. Do we reroll on another server that has a population on it, or do we transfer our lvl50's across. For me it always comes back to 2 things. The grind of levelling another lvl50, and the loss of all the influence we have achieved as a guild. As we are on Lightspire we could have an issue with a merger. Lightspire is an RP server and the only English one in the EU. Would they merge the English, German and French ones together or would they do something else ? | |} ---- This is something they have most likely seen and knew about before this thread. I am sure servers will be taken care of in some way or another. They understand people don't want to be on a lonely server. | |} ---- I get the feeling they read alot more posts in the forums then they let on, but most avoid posting due to fear of being engulfed in flames. Except J-Tal, he likes it warm and toasty and seems to enjoy bringing marshmellows with him. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Pretty much, starting to lose hope at this point. A simple "we're looking into it and are aware of the community outcry" would be enough. They've said this about plenty of issues like attunement, RNG on runes, itemization and many other things. No reason why one of the major dev's can't grace us with their presence to assure us that they're aware of the situation. As it stands, the longer this thread goes without a dev response the more and more people assume that they're just completely ignoring the issue. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Problem is Carbine tried to create a game directed at a very very small portion of the mmo player base. Then they can sit back and watch the game die. With all the other problems, bugs, lack of fixes 2+ months in, and all around shitty decisions made by the dev's people aren't going to give them more on top what they've already spent to transfer servers. | |} ---- ----